Uncovering the Jobs to be Done | Bob Moesta & Chris Spiek | BoS USA 2013

Customers (that’s you and me, by the way) lie. Sad but true. Not maliciously, not even consciously, most customers don’t know, or won’t admit, what they want from their product.

Video & Transcript below

You could see this as a frustrating fact of business. Bob Moesta and Chris Spiek see it as a great opportunity to get ahead of the competition and in this excellent 50 minute session they demonstrate how to unearth some deep insights into customer motivation using the Jobs to be Done framework. This is one of our favourite talks from BoS 2013, because it is so practical and actionable. Watch this if you want to:

• Learn what makes your customers switch to, or from, your product (it’s often not what they’re telling you)
• Find a new source of inspiration for marketing messages
• Unearth new insights into how to find and motivate your customers.

Video

Transcript

Chris Spiek: Well, thank you guys. So, we’re here to talk about ‘Jobs to Be Done’ and hopefully introduce you to a new way to talk to consumers about why they buy? What they buy? So, Mark and I started talk about us coming here and doing the talk. He said, “You can one person present.” I said, “We need two.” We go two. I said, “We need about eight hours to spread this concept and not really good and bad in the people’s head. So, you get one hour.”

So, what we are gonna do is blast through this presentation, give you the framework and kind of the basics of what’s going on? And then we are gonna do a live interview up here. And we are gonna talk somebody about a car that they bought and we are gonna get to the bottom of what motivated them to buy the car? The best to introduce the framework is just to demonstrate it. We can talk about it all day but when see an action it really kind of brings home why we ask the questions that we ask and why we try to get to causality?

I’m Chris Spiek this is my partner Bob Moesta.

Bob Moesta: Good morning. Hi.

Attendees: Good morning.

Bob Moesta: So, my background, I’m an engineer, basically I developed a lot of different products and what I struggled with was how the marketing information I got didn’t helped me figure out the features and benefits are really need to work on. So, this method was developed from that challenge if you will but the key to me is that when you start to talk to consumers you find that the struggling moment, the moment where they say, “I couldn’t do that.” It’s when they start to look for something new. So, to me it’s finding those struggling moments in their life to find out where they need a new product and are they willing to go the distance because a lot of people talk the talk but don’t walk the talk. So, how do we actually find people who can make the trade off to make the progress? So, the struggling moment is the seed of innovation. Go ahead.

Chris Spiek: So, I’m Chris Spiek. I grew up in the web space in the 90s, I ran a custom software development shop and then went on to start the Re-wired group with Bob, mostly out of it desire to have that deeper understanding about how people shop and why buy people buy? And this was mostly out of repeated failure and it was just launching things that we hope that we are gonna catch on the market being positive at the onset that we understood the consumer need and then not getting attraction that we’d get and Bob introduced me to jobs to be done. So, there’re deeper patterns that you can uncover and there’s an actual method to do it.

What I’d say is what’s the consumer gonna stop doing when they start using your product? There’re things in the market that are additive, we can add new behavior but often times we want them to stop using the credit cards in their wallet and start using our mobile payment solution. What is the transformation that they need to go through to get to that point? It’s always what we want answer.

Bob Moesta: So, I have been developing products for longtime, I know I don’t look that old but I really am, I’m almost 50, basically I have developed over 3,000 products between Chris and I and kind of the firm and done everything from Marconi and Cheese all way to the pay trick as off. So, our expertise is really around developing products but what you find if you don’t have the core job that’s somebody is trying to get done, you can develop anything and it doesn’t work, it doesn’t get old, it doesn’t create a business. So, this notion of the jobs to be done is really important at the essence of innovation as we need to point out. So, what we want to do is make sure you understand the basic framework of how to do it. Go ahead.

What is a Job-To-Be-Done?

Chris Spiek: So, this is really the core of what we are talking to and this is from Theater 11 from Harvard Business School and essentially what he said is, “People don’t want to buy the drill. They don’t want the newer fancier drill, they want the hole and they want the outcome.”

So, if you are able to nail the outcome or the progress the person is trying to make in their life you can essentially take the solution out of it and start to think about the different ways that you could create the outcome. So, if you’re trying to hang a picture, do they really in a hole, can we have some fancy adhesive that they can stick on the wall? What are the…We call them technology independent solutions that will help this person make progress in their life.

Bob Moesta: This gets to read this point around the notion of how do you…What’s the arenas right? So, what you actually find out is that in the consumer’s mind what they are thinking of and what you think of this competition is completely different. So, all of the sudden you find that cars don’t compete with cars, cars compete with bikes, cars compete with taxies, cars compete with rental services, there’s a whole host of things that you start to realize that even at that level okay that’s obvious but if you think about the snickers in the milky way they actually don’t compete, people don’t think it was snickers burger oh, yeah you maybe have a milky way, they think of snickers and things like you know, a sandwich or coke all the things. So, what are these competitive arenas from the consumers prospective not from the industry prospective. Go ahead.

Chris Spiek: You want me do this one?

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Content vs Context

Bob Moesta: So, here’s the thing this is one of my favorite sayings all the time I say you know, people why don’t really get it yet? I’m like, “Okay, do you like steak or do you like pizza?” And most people will say, “I like both, alright.” So, the notion is that when you really start to think about steak and you put, you think about the less steak situation, okay, you’re out, you’re celebrating, you’re with the family or you’re with friends you know, you had a good bottle of wine and what happen if I took the steak out and put pizza in it, how much you like pizza then, alright? And if do the vice versa you find the same thing.

So, what happens is we tend to leave out all the context. The context adds value and in some case context has more value than your product. So, being at the right place at the right time is where you wanna make sure you figure this out. So, the notion is in this case you know content is what you make but context is what it means to that. And if you don’t have the meaning it’s very hard to make the trade. As an engineer, as a developer we can’t provide everything to everybody. We need to make trade off our ultimate job is to make the right trade off to make a profitable product. But if I don’t have the context I can’t make the trade offs. So, it’s about the essence of making sure we have not only understands what we can make but the notion of what’s the context is going to be used?

Chris Spiek: So, to a certain extent this conflicts with or adds on to what we usually think of demographic, physiographic sort of segmentation. So, Clay Christenson spoke here a couple of years ago about jobs to be done. He says it very unclearly in that, he said the fact that I’m a 65 years old professor at the Harvard Business School is not where I bought the New York Times this morning. There’s something going on in my life, some progress that I need to make, it’s the situation that drives me to buy that. This is has a similar context we can’t say that all executives each stake and college kids eat pizza just blindly, we need to understand that situational context to understand when to pick one and when to pick the other?

Technology Independent Hiring Criteria

Bob Moesta: So, the essence of job is being able to find the context that people are in. Find out what they are trying to do? What’re the hiring criteria and the firing criteria of what they are currently using? Because in some cases I’d say there’re no new jobs, people who just make progress from the old job. So, if we can actually understand the hiring, the firing, and the progress we’re trying to make and then understand basically what product or service they pick because at the end of the day consumers make trade offs all day. They’ll say they want this, and want this, and want this, and want this, and all of the sudden it was like, yeah, but at the end of the day this is a good deal, right. So, part of this how we actually understand their version of a good deal in reality versus in for and looking for because they can’t put themselves in that situation if we ask them about what they’re going to do we’ll never get the information we need.

So, the notion here’s that we have this thing called the job to be done interview which we’re gonna show you and it’s about looking back and we only talk to people who have bought. So, for example we work with Jason Freed at 37 Signals and we basically we talk to seven people who had just purchased base camp, alright. Why did they buy base camp if all the things they did, why base camp, why now? And then we actually talk to seven people who left the base camp, why they leave and the people who left from, “Oh, I had no project.” It was people who left to go to something else. So, if you focus on the switching aspects of this thing we then can find the hiring criteria to say, “When other people get in that situation how do I actually design the product to actually fit in that situation?”

So, it’s puling out that center piece and say, “Now, I can develop new things to fit in it, okay.” So, the notion here’s what we wanna be able to do is get to the essence of the hiring criteria and why did somebody hire is the causality, if this happen, this happen, this happen boom they bought this. Understand the cause of relationships helps us design better and better products and services by the way, anything else in that one? No, alright.

Two Key Frameworks

Chris Spiek: So, we are gonna talk about two frameworks today. One is the forces diagram and one is the jobs to be done timeline which illustrates the stories that we hear about how people shop and buy. And then we are gonna try to get to an extra one which is the Kano Model of Quality. So, the first one if you take away one thing from this presentation today, I hope that it’s this forces model.

So, we have tried to unpack and describe the forces that are acting on somebody as they switch to a new product. So, it doesn’t work for repeat if you buy and try laundry detergent every month and you are going through the aisle and you’re throwing in your cart, there’s no energy in that system until something new enters your mind and gets you thinking, “Hey, I could make some progress, my laundry could be brighter, I could do it faster, that’s when we started down this path.”

So, there’re four forces that describe that change. The push of the current situation is all about me, the consumer. What’s going on in my life that is making me think that I need to change and make some progress to do something different? I can stain that infinitely, if all I’m thinking of is I need to do something different, I need to do something different, I’ll stay there, it’s we call running on a treadmill. Until something comes into my life that introduces a new possibility, a concept of a new way, a product, or solution, or web service, something pops in and that service or that solution will create magnetism, we call it pull. So, now I have a force that’s pushing me and my current situation and I have a pull of that new product or new service and everything related to it.

So, we call this like above the waterline, below the waterline right when I start to realize that the service or product could make progress? I have anxiety about it, I start thinking about all the things that I might not be able to accomplish with it, and will it deliver on its promises? Or I’ll be able to use it effectively? Do I personally have the skills to use that product? There’s anxiety so there’s something pulling against me. And then finally there’s the habit of the present in order to do this new thing sometimes I have to give up what I’m doing now, the level of credit card example was fantastic, it’s a perfect way to illustrate. Thus we have all, a lot of us have looked at the wall and said, “I have all these credit cards that I’m carrying around, I have to pay them all separately. I have got to juggle them all the time when I’m at the cash register.” There’s push, it’s a huge push but I have the thought in my mind, I can carry less credit cards, level comes along, there’s pull, not just technology pull but like, “I wanna be the guy at the cash register with this cool new thing, there’s a social aspect to it.

So, it might save me money but there might be something that does gonna do between me and my friends.” Creating that magnetism, that pull tons of anxiety, I know how to use my credit cards, bills come every month, I know how to pay them. This is gonna be a whole new thing, one of my phone diaries, now I’m at the cash register I have no idea.

So, I’m running through this entire process and it have with present, I got to call everyone on my credit card companies and say that I’m canceling this thing, I don’t know how to get rid of them? If I have unpaid balances can I transfer how do I do that? All of this will happen, it happens in an instant if you’re at the check out line buying the pack gum, it happens over a period of years buying a house or a car. But think about the next time that you make a purchase, how these are affecting you? Think about your products and how these forces are acting on your consumers and hopefully it will give you a new lens. This can be seen as a math equation.

So, when the top two are the greater than the bottom two we call it at the tip, it’s a switch and it changes overtime, we talk about the timeline.

Bob Moesta: The important thing to remember is most of the time people add more pull, more features, oh, people get more excited about this product if we add this and this and this to it. But what they don’t understand is the anxiety, half of the time what we do as we help companies just take crap out of their product so people will buy it because of the anxiety. So, what people never ask is the anxiety and the question is, “How do you get to that anxiety because nobody will actually tell you they’re afraid but they will if you talk about something in the past.”

Timeline

So, the other key framework and this is called the ‘Timeline’, which is its really kind of strange but to be honest I have been doing this for almost 20 years. And almost every purchase happens in this cycle, in these phases. There’s a first thought you know, so I did a lot of work in moving and housing, right. It’s time to move, right. People have the first thought to be honest 80% of the people have the first thought between thanksgiving a new year at least in the US, alright. They go through this phase called, ‘Passive Looking’, yeah I know I thought about it, I’m not investing but if something comes to buying I look at it. And then there’s an event, something happens, our kids go to school, one of my friends gets sick in terms of downsizing what happens is all of the sudden the people look at each other and say, “It’s time to move and guess what you know, we got to do something about this.”

So, if that one all of the sudden becomes where they start to actively invest time and energy to figure out what to do and then there’s an event too which usually is time bound, put some criteria around what’s gonna happen, this is we need a car now, we need a house now. And then they go to that deciding phase.

So, there’s this thing on the web which is really interesting is people think if you come to say that everybody is buying, a lot of times people were just, they are just looking, they are shopping, they are trying to shape up with what they are trying to do as opposed to actually deciding, alright. And then they buy and then they consume. The most important aspect of this is we don’t ask people from coming back here to say, “Oh, I love this product and tell me about it.” We actually have them tell the story as if they were going through it again. The important aspect of this is guess what half of the features they love, they actually didn’t think about when they bought it.

So, what happens is as we need to understand the essence of the product, the essence of the experience that they were thinking about and deciding on at the moment they decided. So, the key here’s to make sure that we get enough information to understand what we call the ‘Dominos’, it’s like Ryan Singer who we work with at 37, he basically came up with this notion that there’re these Dominos that you got to understand that, “Okay, this product ended up on the table, this is what you have got. How did it get here? Tell me the story how it got here?” And as you back it out, you start to realize there’s a series of casualties and guess what there’s a pattern to the causality and you do one interview, you do two interviews, you do 10 interviews, you actually start to see the patterns and the patterns help you see where the opportunities are, and they help you see the real competitive set etcetera.

The Kano Model of Quality

So, we through this one as a bonus, we have two minutes on this.

This is a guy by the name of Dr. Kano, he’s from Japan. I met him in the 80s when I worked in Japan but he actually highlighted something really important that not all attributes are the same, right.

So, not all features and attributes are same when somebody says something, there’re three different types, the first let me go the vertical axis, the bottom here’s a very dissatisfied to the top is very satisfied, like I’m esthetic about this thing, alright. And then on the right hand side its like, “I didn’t do it at all.” And on the left hand, here we see…[Laughter] And on the right hand side, “I have really, I did it, I achieved it.” And then on the left hand side, “I didn’t do it at all.”

So, let me give you an example on a car brakes, I love my breaks, right. But if I put 10 more dollars in the breaks to let you stop at foot too shorter how satisfied are you? Not really but if the brakes don’t work, how satisfied are you, right.

So, the notion is he calls that expecting quality, those are expected our basically quality requirements. And then there’s things like gas mileage, when I do it people are really excited, when I don’t do it people are really dissatisfied. And then there’s this third set called, ‘Excitement Attributes’ which is when I don’t do it, it really isn’t a big deal. But when I do it wow, I’m really excited, remote starter, alright. There’re certain things that you end up doing to you know, the integration with Pandora, all these kind of things like, I didn’t expected, I didn’t want it but when you did it I love it.

Here’s the thing is, this model what is excitement today becomes performance tomorrow and what is performance today it becomes basically basic tomorrow or expected tomorrow.

So, what you wanna be able to do is the reason why we need to always be talking to our customers is we need to know when thing shift what becomes basic is really important, we don’t need to over invest in basic quality or expected quality, we need to basically invest in performance and excitement quality, okay. So, what we wanna do is we have 36 minutes, we’re gonna do any verse

Tyler. Can we welcome down, Tyler is basically agreed to do an interview with us. [Applause]

Bob Moesta: Right here buddy. Can you put the forces diagram up just because it’s the easiest one? Alright, we are gonna kick if off.

Tyler: Hot seat.

Chris Spiek: Hot seat, it’s not, I like a little break, alright. Go ahead, you kick it off, you do it, you will do better than I.

Chris Spiek: So, we are doing some real early stage research on how people shop for and buy cars? So, we are goes on and do some real formal crazy huge research monks on the road. But all we are trying to do at this point is get language around how people describe their car shopping and buying experience, alright. So, we’re looking for just your story how you came to buy the car that you bought.

Tyler: Okay.

Chris Spiek: No right or wrong answers because it’s just your story. And there are gonna be times where we kind of <19:45> and we’re kind of up in the atmosphere and then we are gonna go really, really deep. And the way to think about it is it’s as if I was filming a documentary about how people shop for cars last 25 years and I’m standing over your shoulder, you are in the dealership, I wanna know everything that I need to describe best seen, who was with you, what time a day was it, what was the sales person like kind of set the scene from this.

So, I can recreate it and I can kind of real it.

Tyler: Okay.

Chris Spiek: Does that make sense?

Tyler: Yep.

Chris Spiek: We are gonna go for about 35 minutes.

Tyler: Alright.

Bob Moesta: Game on when the phone is up, game off when the phone is down, and game off mean we’re gonna talk to you.

So, game on a game off. So, part of this I wanna this half of the room to think of yourselves as a car manufacturer, I want you to think about features and benefits and everything that he’s gonna talk about this car. Over here I want you guys to think about yourself as a car dealer, the person who’s actually delivering the car.

So, listen to this interview as if you are the service provider of bringing the car to the market. Go ahead.

Chris Spiek: So, what did you buy? What car did you buy? Tyler: I bought a 2012 Comfort line Volkswagen Z.

Chris Spiek: Comfort Line.

Bob Moesta: What color is it?

Tyler: Silver.

Chris Spiek: Have you named it yet?

Tyler: No.

Chris Spiek: Do you name your cars?

Tyler: No, I’m not a car guy at all.

Chris Spiek: You are not a car guy at all. When did you buy it?

Tyler: I think it was February, 28th of this year it was definitely the end of February.

Chris Spiek: End of February. What dealer?

Tyler: Some Super shady looking it was car dealer. [Laughter] And an industrial like outside of <21:20>.

Chris Spiek: Really?

Tyler: Yeah. I was like this is not…

Chris Spiek: You didn’t go to a dealer?

Tyler: I did but after that I was like I’m doing to deal with anyone.

Chris Spiek: Alright. [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: Your bars are really low, alright. [Laughter] So, when did you have the first thought that you needed a car?

Tyler: So, I was using a car rental, zip car, and like renting cars when I need them longer. And I really, really didn’t wanna buy a car, I used to own a car. So, I was always pushing against it. And my wife wasn’t against owning one but she wants that one. So, we had a baby and my wife is on maternity leave for a year. And I was like, “Well, someday if you probably gonna need a car but let like I had friends who had kids and they are not like let’s hold as long as we can and then…”

Chris Spiek: So, this is one of those things where you just in your mind are like don’t want it, don’t want to do, I know it’s there.

Tyler: I don’t want to maintain a car.

Chris Spiek: So, you are literally pushing it out of your mind?

Tyler: Yeah, yeah. And think what like maybe find like, “Okay, we’ll start looking at cars was because we are using like zip car or renting a car, somehow it’s just be easier to use.” My wife’s family lives like an hour outside of Toronto and we take communal trains and she missed the communal train ones and they only came ones an hour and she was like on a communal train platform with a six month old in the winter in Toronto for an hour. I was like, “I would murder someone if I was like if I was in her scenario.” So, it was like, “Okay, I’ll start looking for a car.”

Chris Spiek: So, it wasn’t that it happened to her.

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: It was the fact that you didn’t wanna to happen like…?

Tyler: Right, I was like my…I’m like, “If I don’t wanna buy a car like just standing like my wife at platform with my six months old son.”

Chris Spiek: It’s fair enough for them but the notion is like…Let’s talk, so, what was the conversation with her, she, it was just like, “You have been giving from buy a car and…”

Tyler: No, not all. She was like, “I was angry about the scenario, it was like oh, my god stupid go train like they can’t run trains on time.” She was just like, like Edison didn’t, he was in good behavior and blah-blah-blah, so it wasn’t a big deal.

Chris Spiek: Edison is your son?

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: What’s the name of your wife?

Tyler: Oreo.

Chris Spiek: Oreo, okay.

Tyler: I told her last night that I was like yeah this guy might interview. So, she’s like, “Okay, whenever you refer me refer me as your stunning and beautiful wife.” [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: And she is, and she is.

Bob Moesta: So, how many with the time or when was the baby born?

Tyler: June 26th, 2012.

Bob Moesta: Okay. So, the year was yet.

Tyler: No.

Bob Moesta: So, at this point of time it’s like its February or similar, when she was doing it, when she was doing that?

Tyler: I think it must be like early January.

Bob Moesta: Early January.

Tyler: Early January or maybe December or something like that, yeah.

Bob Moesta: Okay.

Tyler: It’s definitely a winter time.

Bob Moesta: So, it wasn’t so soon, no, no you took six weeks, eight weeks to find the car.

Tyler: Yeah.

Bob Moesta: So, how often was she going to her parents?

Tyler: Well, I’m sure we probably went like every week or two but then there was a like a miss-mash of like, “So, like I found her like a really good enterprise dealership near our place so like they’d drop like pick up and drop of the cars so like renting a car from them wasn’t that bad.” And then like zip car like, I’ll just be like okay, I pay like a daily rate from them I just will or like get a lift in Hamilton with her sister or something like that. So, there’s like miss-mash of solutions, okay.

Bob Moesta: Was that the last time she took the train, it was the train hour that point or?

Tyler: You know, it might have been, might have been like she might taken it maybe one more time. I don’t think I have ever taken go trains since then.

Bob Moesta: Okay.

Chris Spiek: Since that it’s like oh.

Tyler: Well, I just like, well the logistics I mean he got the baby’s car seat on the stroller and there and then like whoever picking up the train station like, “Where are you are going?” Like my father-in-law picking up it’s like, “Then he got to put the car seat in his car and it was like, okay well, I got inconvenience of other the people.”

Chris Spiek: So, it’s a whole bunch of things but that one extra thing is just what?

Tyler: Yeah, I’m just like, alright.

Chris Spiek: So, when did you start to look? Did you go online or did you go to dealers? How do you go get over it?

Tyler: Ah, I started looking online, I guess because zip car and with the renting cars I have driven like, I don’t know like every brand and model like kind of Sedan or those probably gonna consider.

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: Because I knew like I’m just frugal person by nature it’s like I’m gonna buy something like relatively cheap. So, I had an idea what I want it. So, then yeah I’d totally been researching online.

Bob Moesta: So, I wanna know the first. So, I can kind of feel like the energy of like, “Oh, my god, she was stranded, she’s kind of dealing with it but in your mind you are just like this is not good.” Do you remember the first it’s like open the laptop or drive, what did you do the very first time? Do you actually like start to thinking to about it?

Tyler: I’m thinking about it, I must have gone online then like what because I probably need, I didn’t probably have a concept of what a new car in cost at that point.

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: So, I used to own a Volkswagen like that was the car I own when I used to live in Seattle.

Bob Moesta:  Yeah

Tyler:I never drove it so, I wanna move back to Toronto get rid of it.

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: So, sure the first thing I probably did I went to Volkswagen’s website to see what a new golf or jitter…

Bob Moesta: But it sounds like you actually looked at enterprise, you looked at other like the cars still off the table at some point because you’re looking for other solutions.

Tyler: Oh, yeah like I either walk or by to work and we never like, we rarely ever drive a car, like we only use it for going to family or like driving to like here or that kind of stuff like…

Bob Moesta: Driving to Ikea what’s that like?

Tyler: To Ikea?

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: Not that bad but like just because we are in the city but…

Bob Moesta: So, you don’t only, you still only need a car every once in a while I don’t understand how you got a car?

Tyler: Because like…So, if you wanna you’re like, if you wanna to Ikea a zip car?

Bob Moesta: Yeah

Tyler: Its like, “Okay, I got like trying guess how long like everything is gonna take me.” So, it’s like, “Okay, this is probably should only be like a 90 minute trip but I got to rent the car for four hours because maybe my son is gonna like take a longer nap and I gotta get and it’s like harder to book them on the weekend and I don’t wanna have to walk too far from and I got to put the cars in stroller and like it is all this extra time that I spend getting to the car, billing up and then whatever my extend the trip and then when you’re like, oh god I just like spent and hour Ikea and like I’m really like ready to kill someone than instead of just going home it’ll be like, oh at least I’m done for the day.”

I got to drive back to the zip car parking lot, go and then get my son out of the car seat and put him a stroller and then walk like 20 minutes back in my house. And like and all the steps you probably want so like just go for a nap or something. So, it was like, “Okay, I just wasted several hours of my time with this loop.”

Bob Moesta: So, in the end this is about just convenience, it just making it that much easier?

Tyler: Yeah, yeah.

Bob Moesta: Alright. So, help me to get me to the first like car, search car like at some point what you like where are you?

Tyler: VW…

Bob Moesta: Yeah, like the VW Dealership search?

Tyler: I probably went to vw.ca, I certainly type that.

Chris Spiek: Have you rented any VWs?

Tyler: No.

Chris Spiek: So, you didn’t rent any VWs yet, it’s like…

Tyler: I might have got ZO like once but like use it like American Cars.

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: Like the occasional, like while renting cars or zip car, I think I rarely ever got Volkswagen, I had like Ford Keya, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Chevy, like the whole gamete.

Chris Spiek: Yeah. So, your first search is…

Tyler: Because I really like my old Volkswagen like that was like…

Chris Spiek: Do you miss it?

Tyler: That car, yeah. Because I wanted like the smallest car I could possibly buy. Like the smallest cheapest car I can get but unfortunately like…

Chris Spiek: But the Z is not the smallest and cheapest.

Tyler: It’s definitely not the smallest but like all other things it was pretty dam cheap what I got.

Chris Spiek: But okay so, the last car, the last Z you had, you said you didn’t drive that much.

Tyler: I have Golf.

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: I’m like sentimental value of it.

Chris Spiek: Well, tell me about having that car? What was just like the college car or was that after college?

Tyler: Yeah, it was like, it was my dad’s old like my dad got rid of that Volkswagen. He had a Volkswagen Golf, he had this Volkswagen Golf, which I have something, it was like the last design. So, it’s like 2000 Volkswagen Golf.

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: So, I got that from him and I last university and then I absolving in Toronto for a bit and then I took it out to Seattle. But like as I said when I was living there, I really haven’t drove it but I think probably because I had when I was in university in Toronto like I really liked it and it’s also like Volkswagens are pretty good for tall people like leg rooms stuff is good on it.

Chris Spiek: How did you and you know that from the old one or how did you know that?

Tyler: Oh, I didn’t know that was true but the Z <30:40>like the new Z ones I drove one.

Chris Spiek: Okay, got it.

Bob Moesta: So, VWD…So, finally dealer driver the dealership and so what did you do on the VW site, do you remember?

Tyler: I probably just priced that what like, I was like, “Okay, well I have to got like what are like the most bare requirements I need like air-conditioning and I think that was about it.”

Bob Moesta: Okay. [Laughter]

Tyler: And then I was trying to get an idea like what…

Chris Spiek: Did you look at the Golf or you might write to the Jeda?

Tyler: I think I did but at that Christmas I had rented a car for like a week to go to like my in-laws and my parents and stuff and it were a Kia Forte I think. And the trunk is like you know, it’s as a decent size but it’s bigger than Golf and the thing was like every square inches pack like stroller part of crib Christmas gifts are stuff like and I was just like, “Oh, my god that we fill this thing, I was like if we ever buy a car like a hatch bag is just not gonna do it.”

Bob Moesta: And when was it start, I missed that?

Tyler: That was Christmas when I rented that car.

Bob Moesta: Got it, okay, okay. So, I wanna know what the VW site looks like? So, it’s like can you see all the models, how do you get to the Jeda? Is it like do you go in and out, I wanna look at the Golf a little bit I wanna look at the Jeda? How do you navigate that site do you remember? It’s a longtime ago.

Tyler: Yeah, I think it was just, I don’t remember what was like main page like what they were trying to sell you but like I’m pretty sure there was a drop down and it was like and it shows you all of the different models. So, there’s you know, like Golf, Jeda, Passat, Kia whatever other like wired car in sale and like on the Jeda there’s like way too many lines like there’s like the standard ones and then the hot like then there’s like Jeda GLI, and they’re sold on two different products so it was like what’s the difference? So, then I kind of you know, dug into that I was like, “Okay, price, like I said lowest level Jeda with air-conditioning.”

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: What is that? And then I probably went to couple of other like websites for different brand.

Bob Moesta: You did look for Kia?

Tyler: I did price out Kia, yeah.

Bob Moesta: You did, above on the right?

Tyler: Yeah, and all the pricing it was new, there’re certain brands I like, I just like there’s no way I’m gonna buy them because it’s like certain smaller design.

Bob Moesta: Which one?

Tyler: I’m not a designer but I guess I’m from a kind of design driven company. So, there’re certain things like I couldn’t tolerate like I couldn’t buy Hyundai because there’re certain things about this console like jut couldn’t stand and I just couldn’t buy Honda because there’re things about the panel I just couldn’t stand.

Chris Spiek: So, you just rejected.

Tyler: Yeah, I rejected. I knew that every time I drive the car it will be like, the crap… [Laughter]

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: Just design.

Bob Moesta: Yeah, got it. So, Kia…?

Tyler: And I already didn’t wanna buy a car. So, if was gonna cruse the thing everyday a new…

Chris Spiek: So, it was like you didn’t like it or was it they didn’t?

Tyler: It wasn’t well like there’re some pieces at design I just didn’t like.

Chris Spiek: Okay. Can you give me one example?

Tyler: Like in Toyota they have like the dash is like central, like there’s no way I was doing that, it was just like it doesn’t make sense to me. On the Hyundai, like the buttons feels really cheap and all other things are central console. On the Honda, it’s not like they don’t have the gauges aren’t like mechanical, they are just like digital displays and it’s like I feel like I’m driving from Ford from the 80s or something. It’s like they just crack the technology. It was like just not a nice tactile experience.

Bob Moesta: Yep.

Chris Spiek: Got it. So, the people who made the list where VW and Kia, anything else?

Tyler: I look at alright like price status like Subaru, like the cheapest car they had, I can’t remember the model, Subaru what else because they had like dirt cheap financing.

Chris Spiek: What does that mean dirt cheap financing?

Tyler: Like they had like 0% financing for like five years in a car and it was like, “Well, maybe I can just buy something like a new car <35:05> all about it like if anything goes wrong with this car and like go to the dealership.” And it’ll be like, “Hey, this is your car, I hate.”

Chris Spiek: So, you had that concern the whole time?

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: And I just wanna make sure I get this right you bought it from the used car guy?

Tyler: Oh, yeah like I could not believe when I was like I cannot believe I’m giving this guy $14,000. It likes a Russian mobster working like a trailer like, it’s ridiculous. [Laughter]

Bob Moesta: And the notion is that as you were looking in Subaru because they had cheap financing. [Laughter]

Tyler: Yeah, I like there’re also but like you know, the car had like utility to it that I like and there’s the design that was like I met them, like based requirements for design.

Bob Moesta: Okay.

Tyler: And utility I guess.

Bob Moesta: Let’s just move ahead. So, at what point did you start to actively go look at cars? Did you actually go look at cars?

Tyler: No, like because I said like I drove every car like I knew what I want it. So, then I…

Bob Moesta: But you have driven, you didn’t drive a VW.

Tyler: Yeah, well… [Laughter] So, when I actually went to dealership like the first time I test drive the Zeta I was like, okay this is…?

Bob Moesta: When was that?

Tyler: Like maybe five days before I bought the car.

Bob Moesta: So, this is…

Tyler: And it’s pretty much settled that I was gonna buy a Zeta at that point unlike their test drive was horrific.

Bob Moesta: So, that was a different deal, right? So, this is like February 20 or something.

Tyler: 23rd.

Bob Moesta: And was that a new car dealership you drove it up?

Tyler: Yeah, it was a Volkswagen dealership.

Bob Moesta: Which one do you know? Where was it?

Tyler: It was near Pearson, it was, I can’t remember the name of the dealership but…

Bob Moesta: Got it. [Laughter]

Tyler: But it was near the airport.

Bob Moesta: Near the airport. I got it, okay. So, where did you go, what date did you go to drive it?

Tyler: Like what day that we go?

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: I think it was a Monday because we actually…

Bob Moesta: A Monday?

Tyler: Yeah.

Bob Moesta: You find time on the Monday to go drive a car.

Tyler: Because I just have no time at the weekend. So, I think the reason that schedule that together is because I had to go to Pearson that morning for, I had to go Pearson that morning for a security interview for trusted traveler program.

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: We got there for our son. So, I have to bring him for an interview with the Federal…

Chris Spiek: So, I’m gonna see the…

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: Oh, stop by the the VW dealer.

Tyler: And it’s all like I’m there like I’ll go to that and meet with the dealership and then I think I also like booked a meeting out of another VW dealership because I’m like, “I want this one, and we just go to other one to see like pricing.”

Chris Spiek: Is your wife with you or not?

Tyler: My wife and my son.

Chris Spiek: Okay. So, your wife and your son are like, “Oh, we’re gonna go do this interview and then we’re gonna to do two dealers.”

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: Okay, you have two dealers.

Tyler: No, I have actually never bought a new car.

Chris Spiek: Alright. So, like me give me time a day. So, you have got the interview for the travel first?

Tyler: Yeah, and I was like just gone or something like that.

Chris Spiek: Alright.

Tyler: And that took like five minutes.

Chris Spiek: And did you rent a car? And how do you get there?

Tyler: I think I had a Zip car.

Chris Spiek: Do you remember which one it was?

Tyler: I think it was the Honda.

Chris Spiek: So, you’re here today?

Tyler: I didn’t load it but I was just like I’m not giving these people my money.

Bob Moesta: So, I wanna the conversation going. So, you’re driving from the interview. Tell me about the conversation between you and your wife going for the VD. Is it because it contrast between like let’s buy this car or let’s give this over with or like, “Hey, let’s just go browse around.”

Tyler: Let’s give this over width because we like just like there’s only so many days we’re gonna actually do this.

Bob Moesta: Okay. So, in your mind there’s like, there’s a decent chance of walking out with a car?

Tyler: Yeah, they gave me the right price I always like.

Bob Moesta: And did you have a cheque with you?

Tyler: Probably.

Bob Moesta: Did you have a cheque?

Tyler: I don’t remember but probably.

Bob Moesta: Okay. What you are gonna buy? So, like you have of like the actions or like…

Tyler: Like I’m a horrible like date inured so like I had a spreadsheet of like different cars I was considering.

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: Both new and used and then what like the operating cost of those cars would be for the next five years like what they’re like advertise cost it would be I was like…So, I knew like, like I had the trails of like all fuel economy base and what I thought I was gonna drive in the next year which I actually turned out to be correct like in terms of mileage and stuff per month.

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: What about insurance? Did you get quotes from insurance on the different cars?

Tyler: I got quotes on a couple of cars, yeah.

Chris Spiek: So, is the spreadsheet with you or is it like that research is done?

Tyler: Every researches, oh when I was like…So, then it was like so that was all basically to buy from my own mental buy and of what I was getting.

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: And when I started looking at used cars there was like one or two year Zetas that were just selling like, I was just like that is a huge drop off from new cars and just like I think I can get this done and like justify the cars.

Chris Spiek: Get the new car done or like…

Tyler: No, no, no, like getting and unlike because I got like a one year old used fleet like VW that had 25,000 kilometers on it.

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: And literally like the car had been detailed clearly known at ever set in the back seat of this car.

Chris Spiek: Got it, I wanna know how many did you get from the dealer with your kid and your wife after the interview? So, tell me about…

Tyler: It’s getting the timeline it was a

Chris Spiek: So, give me walking into the dealership, you got to get the baby out, you got your wife with you.

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: So, this is like I’m video taping you walking in here, give me the whole scene?

Tyler: So, this dealership which I think was on the largest VW dealerships in Toronto. It was currently renovation. So, you walked into like their garage. So, it was not a very, like it’s not a nice looking space. They had like test car like ready, it was sitting and ready to go.

Bob Moesta: So, you call the head or…

Tyler: Yeah, I called the head like I wanna get there, I want there and be someone who I can talk to, I don’t like to wait when I get there. So, they’re like, “Okay, Joe or whatever the guy name was…”

Bob Moesta: Okay, got it. What you call on the way or had you call the previous day?

Tyler: The previous day, yeah.

Bob Moesta: Okay.

Chris Spiek: Sunday?

Tyler: It would have been on the weekend, yeah, yeah.

Chris Spiek: Okay. Are they open on Sunday?

Tyler: I have no idea.

Chris Spiek: So, what you do, they have the car there, what did you asked for?

Tyler: I was like, I’m thinking about a used 2012 Zeta.

Chris Spiek: Yep.

Tyler: Because they had a whole bunch it was did on Craiglist. So, I was like, “Okay, I wanna a test drive, I want that.”

Chris Spiek: Okay.

Bob Moesta: So, you don’t know that this is like you need the car but they pulled out something used 2012 Zeta.

Tyler: Yeah, I used 2012 tram line Zeta.

Bob Moesta: Okay

Tyler: And I was like, “I didn’t care about color. I didn’t care about…”

Chris Spiek: What’s the Tram line?

Tyler: Sorry, it’s just like there’s like the lowest cheapest Zeta is a tram line.

Chris Spiek: Okay.

Tyler: And then it’s like tram line plus comfort line, comfort line plus blah-blah-blah.

Chris Spiek: Yeah. So, I just gonna make sure you bought the comfort line, right?

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: So, you didn’t buy the cheapest one.

Tyler: No, this is why the Russian mobster is even better deal.

Chris Spiek: [Laughter] Got it, okay. So, you are walking with it, do you take car seat out of the car, put your kid in the car or your kid waiting, how are you doing this test drive?

Tyler: I got to the place we took Edison out of the car. My went inside the dealership, I did the test drive. And I came back and I was like, “Yeah, it’s good, like it meets my standard of driving.” [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: What’s your wife doing with the Edison inside?

Tyler: I guess just sitting inside you know.

Chris Spiek: She didn’t want to go?

Tyler: No, she didn’t like it. She was like if you are fine then fine.

Chris Spiek: Okay.

Tyler: My stunning and beautiful wife… [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: Sorry, I forgot that point. So, why did you just sign right there?

Tyler: I couldn’t come to price.

Chris Spiek: What you mean you couldn’t come to price? You know the prices already.

Tyler: Yeah. So, I figured there was some room for haggling.

Chris Spiek: Right. [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: And there was not.

Tyler: There was not. Well, like there wasn’t, I was like, “Well, hold on like, I’m like, these are other price I have seen.” The guy is like, then you skimmed it out ridiculous interaction with sales guys at dealerships who’re like, “Well, this is the best that I can do let me go talk to my manager.” And he was like, “Well, you don’t have authority that like do anything here.” And why don’t I just talk to your manager and then I found out that this is how this always works and it was like insane.

Chris Spiek: How did you find out that’s always works because it sounds ridiculous?

Tyler: Well, then like when I told people offer is like, “You’d not believe how terrible it is going to a car dealership it was like shake down.”

Chris Spiek: In the moment you didn’t know, you are just like, “I can’t talk to him but he’s the decision maker.”

Tyler: Right, yeah.

Chris Spiek: So, you got and this word is like seven times…

Tyler: The guy was like now it’s like cannot go lower than, I can’t remember what price he said you know, I was just like, “Okay, well then I’m clearly misinformed about like the pricing of this car because other are like used car listings are lower than that.”

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: So, I was like, “I have an appointment with like another VW dealership on the highway, I’ll give you call back if…”

Chris Spiek: And he didn’t budge all in that?

Tyler: Didn’t budget all, I think he called me at the end of the day but…

Chris Spiek: So, you left there with your son and beautiful wife.

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: And you went to the other dealer.

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: And what will you hoping for when you went to the second dealer?

Tyler: That I can haggle a better price.

Chris Spiek: So, haggling was important to you at this point?

Tyler: Well, I was like if I can just buy certified used Volkswagen from the dealership then I was like I have like less concern in my mind about like the maintenance of it that’s like, or it’s always been maintained by VW, blah-blah-blah like…

Bob Moesta: So, you got to get just dollar amount in your head, like is there…

Tyler: Yeah, I think my wife and I had decided like I’m not like max price.

Bob Moesta: Okay. So, I’m getting the guy down at this price.

Tyler: Done like…

Bob Moesta: Drive out.

Tyler: Safe as much time as possible I mean just down with the whole thing.

Bob Moesta: Got it.

Chris Spiek: But I just wanna make sure you traded off the dealer kind of security thing.

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: With getting a better deal from the Russian mobster.

Tyler: Yeah.

Bob Moesta: Got it, okay. So, you went to this so, now it’s new, did you guys go eat between or I mean at some point when do you…

Tyler: So, then we drove to the next dealership, I went through this again and a guy then try to sell me like every other brand of Volkswagen I was like, “No, I’m like Golf cheaper is like my stroller isn’t fit in the back of Volkswagen Golf.” He’s like, “Are you sure?” I was like, “Are we actually gonna do this?” [Laughter]

Tyler: I roll the thing into the dealership we popped on the triangle like the Golf there.

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: And I’m like back to the conversation I wanna have. [Laughter]

Tyler: And then…

Bob Moesta: So, what is your wife, your beautiful wife and Edison doing at this time? Tyler: Sitting there and kind of being like my wife is very charming and polite person but like oh, my god you don’t want enemies over there. Like once you like then you are done, they can just see you like, with this guy I mean like why is like if you can’t do the price then just say it like, and if like you are wasting our time.

Bob Moesta: So, you just kind of make sure that humor is that you actually took the thing and put it in the golf?

Tyler: Yeah, yeah our stroller, yeah.

Bob Moesta: Your stroller. So, how long you were there for that deal? Tyler: I don’t know an hour.

Bob Moesta: Yeah. So, do you wanna end up with the Gold after the Zeta it was like, did you get to a point on the Zeta with this guy, the second guy where you are like, “We are not gonna get to this price, lets go some place else.”

Tyler: Yeah. So, like we went back & forth on price and then same thing it was like, “Well, let me talk to my manager about the price.” And then manager is like, “There is like no way we can go that low because it’s like well this is the price we even bought the car at. Do you wish maybe like hold on?” I’m like, “If he’s telling me that number something like I have, he has information that I don’t have.”

Bob Moesta: Yeah.

Tyler: Like something, he’s making money elsewhere that I don’t understand. Bob Moesta: Okay. Tyler: I was like, “I’m gonna get ripped off, I’m leaving.”

Bob Moesta:

Okay. So, I wanna know like the thought.

Tyler: I just did not trust the scenario at that point.

Bob Moesta: So, that and it’s not even one dealership or the other dealership at this point, it’s like the whole dealership thing is kind of…

Tyler: This is unfortunate because I then drove to another dealership. [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: A third one.

Bob Moesta: The third one?

Tyler: Yeah, there was another one like really close by.

Chris Spiek: VW?

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: So, you are thinking the third time it’s gonna be different? [Laughter]

Tyler: I will like well just see what’s on. [Laughter]

Tyler: I’m like, I already send all this time and I was like I’m not taking another day after deal with these idiots. So, let’s see what happens. Exact same thing happens. [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: And you couldn’t come to terms. So, I wanna know what your feeling was when you left like, “Oh, my god, I gotta to…”

Tyler: I’ll never buy a car again. [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: So, interesting.

Tyler: I was like, “Maybe we won’t have to buy car.”

Chris Spiek: So, the third guy still never shouted like, “Let me get you in something older and more miles, anything there’s no like because I guess I got to play it all, I went to the first, I thought I was getting the car at the beginning of this day.”

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: Two dealers have done, the third guy is gotta to be playing some game to like, “Let’s change your, let’s change your hope you know, let’s change where you trying to get nothing.”

Tyler: I’m pretty sure when my wife said, “It was like maybe our expectations on the price isn’t like right or something is like maybe we are, maybe like we really can’t get for this price based on other thing.”

Chris Spiek: Yeah.

Tyler: So, I think after that third dealership we went because he ask me a second ago and it was like, “Okay, well, that’s when I go home and I go back, I go to the office and then we will figure this out again.” And I think that night or some day week because we bought the car, we bought the car I think on the Saturday, yeah, we bought the car on the Saturday. So, I must have gone to the used car lot with my wife on Thursday night or something like that, like Thursday or Friday.

Chris Spiek: So, how did you find the Russian guy?

Tyler: Just like something like Craiglist, yeah I don’t know if it’s…

Chris Spiek: So, how do you think it’s gonna be any difference than the dealer?

Tyler: Well, his list price, the price he had it was like almost I wanna to be and it was just like a kind of freak listing of like low kilometer is like blah-blah-blah. So, I was like, “Okay, unlike as bad as the dealers were.” So, now I was mentally prepared like, used car dealers are gonna be insanely bad.

Chris Spiek: [Laughter]

Tyler: And like this guy I was just like, “Yeah, when did you wanna come in.” I was like, “I’ll be there it was like Thursday at 6 o’clock or something like that.” And again the three of those like I think to use car, I went to the used car lot, it was an industrial space in like Oakfield kind of outside of Toronto, or suburb of Toronto, and car was like I said office was just so shitty and dirty and I just like, “Oh my god this is ridiculous but the car was perfectly fine, he just bought an auction like the week before.” And he was like, “Well, this is the price I was like there’s getting nothing wrong with the car.”

Chris Spiek: Did you drive it?

Tyler: Yeah, it’s like around the block. And I was just like, “This thing is brand new.” So, I wanna take it to the Volkswagen dealership on, the third dealership I went to was actually on the other side of the highway. So, I was like, “Can I take it to them to inspect it?” And because I can’t remember what his asking price was? I was like, “Can you do at this price?” And he’s like, “He get the calculator, he is like done.” I was like, “Okay.” The next day my wife brought the car to the VW dealership, mechanic told her, he was like, “This is the brand new car.” He’s like, “There’s nothing wrong with this car.” So, we went on Saturday with money and went to the… Chris Spiek: Certified warranty? Tyler: Yeah, it was like all your standard like it’s almost covered by like you know, five year 100,000. Chris Spiek: It wasn’t a certified pre-owned? Tyler: No, it wasn’t certified pre-owned. But it still had like all those things. Chris Spiek: How many miles? Tyler: It had 28,000 kilometers on it. Chris Spiek: Okay, okay. Tyler: So, it was like 100,000. Chris Spiek: And it wasn’t the lowest priced one? Tyler: No, but like it was still lowest price Zeta I could possibly buy in South Eastern Ontario I’m guessing. [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: Got it, alright two minutes.

Tyler: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: Thank you so much.

Tyler: Thank you. [Applause]

Bob Moesta: What was the push?

Attendees: The train.

Bob Moesta: The train, the having the kid, right. It was defective rental cars and having to try to find the right one it was like all the inconvenience. What was the pull?

Attendees: [Inaudible]

Bob Moesta: VW some historical, emotional.

Chris Spiek: College VW.

Bob Moesta: What is College VW, right? But it is also the fact is that, but there’re certain things that were out for sure, right. What was anxiety?

Attendees: Cars is gonna break the price.

Bob Moesta: The cars gonna break the price, right. Getting a deal at the end of the day all he really want it was a little bit off, right. And the ability to negotiate and if you didn’t have that ability to negotiate it was done.

Chris Spiek: So, the other interesting thing that you hear we always look for like really discrete stories piling all the stuff in the trunk, it was just you could picture him standing and saying they’re saying like, “Alright, this is the design consideration and I need to be aware of it, right. A day ago it wasn’t like that but now it’s like the Kia trunk is full, if the Golf can’t make it its out, its out.” So, the notion is that all of those all of that story helps you lead to again how unique you think the story are actually?

Attendees: [Inaudible]

Chris Spiek: It’s not. When you start to look at, when you start to do three-four and to be answer and then doing with them you start to realize there’s an issue here of there’re the patterns.

Bob Moesta: So, we got to talk about the last one because…So, the habit of the present was fantastic because you could feel this, I have only car and so only and you talked about his friends. So, we have friends that have kids that have done this. So, now there’s like we can do this, we can pull this off, we can overcome the evil car dealership people who want us to drive cars because we know people that have done that, right. There’s how we can innovate and we can get around it so there’s something for, at least for a year, eight months after the baby is born it’s like no we are not doing it like we can zip car and we can take the go train, we are not gonna tip. But you have to start to feel how everything else starts to pile up the fact that she got stranded on the deck of the train everything piles up in order to getting there, to eventually switch.

Chris Spiek: Time.

Bob Moesta: Times up.

Chris Spiek: So, the thing is that we’re still around for the next three days. So, we’d be here for questions no more time unless we can actually gonna ask one.

Attendees: Only two minutes.

Chris Spiek: Two minutes because it’s a break, right.

Attendees: Yeah.

Chris Spiek: Two minutes, one question, two questions. Yeah, just talk it out.

Speaker 1: So, giving the point where you feel… [Inaudible]

Chris Spiek: Exactly. So, the thing is you start to…

Bob Moesta: So, the Zip car have an opportunity to just rent long term or buy from them, can they take their customer base and somehow monetize it in different ways knowing that people are struggling like this and wanting to get out and can they leverage their…

Chris Spiek: And that happened at so big that might I think it is the leverage that have it because progress of buying the car you wanna to go the other way. So, you’re actually creating anxiety at the new to actually advertise the new car buying experience to create anxiety to keep more Zip, right. Speaker 2: Hey, so tomorrow is battling people in my company minimum buyable product versus something that I think is actually exciting and sellable, right. So, I’m always going for more, they are always going for less and you know, the various diagrams that you showed looked to me like if I give some of the complete minimum, right. And I’m giving them things that they might expect cannot actually going to be delighted or see a very different way of doing things. Bob Moesta: That’s correct. Speaker 2: I’m just trying to find confirmation from my buyers so I can go back and tell people I’m right.

Chris Spiek: That’s right, that’s right. [Laughter]

Chris Spiek: If you just give them the basics it’s not necessarily you need to actually hit the performance but the key is what are the performance and the excitement variables? And what are the criteria because at some point you need to listen to stories of what people have done in the past because there’re for everyone of Tyler’s there’s probably another 300 or 300,000 people out there trying to buy who’re going through the same kind of experience. So, how do you make it better for him or them to buy cars?

Bob Moesta: The other thing that we always talk about is what we call this the big higher. So, it’s the switch, it’s buying the product but the other thing that we always consider is the little higher. So, using it every time you get in the car and you drive it. Is it delighting you or is it annoying you and pushing you towards another car? So, there might be something in addition to basic quality that you need to add to keep them delighted overtime. And this works in software, this works in services, this works in everything. Chris Spiek: Just to make sure it’s clear. I wanna be conscious to everybody’s time.

Bob Moesta: Perfect.

Chris Spiek: Great.

Bob Moesta: Thank you everyone. [Applause]