Dame Stephanie ‘Steve’ Shirley CH: New Ways Of Working

Dame Stephanie is 50 years ahead of her time. While remote work is becoming more popular now than ever before, Dame Stephanie’s company was remote only from the outset. No Slack, no Twitter, no World Wide Web! So how did she do it?

In this interview with Mark from BoS Europe 2019, Dame Stephanie discusses some of the lessons she’s learned in starting, building, growing and exiting one of Europe’s most successful companies, building on the content of her inspiring book ‘Let It Go‘. You will hear why some of her core values – trust, a belief in strong culture, valuing outputs over inputs, a sense of values and determination – are as critical to building a successful business today as they were in the jet age. This is one of the BoS Team’s favourites.

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Transcript

Mark Littlewood
Remember that tune?

Dame Steve
Just about.

Mark Littlewood
For anyone that doesn’t know the tune, it was your number one pick for Desert Island Discs.

Dame Steve
Well, my memory’s gone, obviously. I’m slightly worried because my memory has gone. And I’m not going to be able to add to this wonderful diagram because I’m really talking about completely different things. So we’ll do our best. Shall we?

Mark Littlewood
Okay, great. So thank you very much indeed, for coming along. I wanted to talk to you about a few things and sort of just run through a little bit of your background, talk about how you set up the freelance programmers company and some of the reasons that that was successful, and then move on to talk about some of the things you’ve done more laterally? Because I think one of the things that struck me reading your book is that a lot of the things that you learned as an entrepreneur, you’ve applied to philanthropy as well. So let’s, let’s start.

A Life Worth Saving.

Mark Littlewood
At the beginning, you came over to England. Very difficult circumstances. And I think that’s really the sort of beginning of

Dame Steve
Yes, I think that traumatic chart start in life, I was five years old, when I went to a new country, new family, new language, new food, new everything. But that change, which I did manage to cope with, led to the confidence that I can deal with that change, I can deal with most of the changes that life has thrown at me. And it had really three impacts, some of which are relevant to business. I realized that because I could deal with change, I actually enjoy change, and could make it happen. And that each week could be different to last week, and I would never hit my boredom threat threshold. I also knew that the life that was saved, I really needed to make it worth saving, and so I don’t fritter my time away, I have become a very serious person. And finally, of course, I am a patriot. I love this country that took me in as a child refugee, with a passion that perhaps only someone who has lost their human rights can feel. So it’s really made an enormous difference to my life. And that is as strong today, as it was 75 years ago. I thought I’d get over it. But it still drives me to make sure that each day is part of a life worth saving.

Pressure to Thrive.

Mark Littlewood
And that’s something that’s very clear in your book, it’s very clear in the conversations I’ve had with you, and in the interviews I’ve seen with you. There is that real focus on it, does that put too much pressure on you? Do you ever feel overwhelmed by that pressure?

Dame Steve
I felt overwhelmed frequently in my company’s development with different sorts of things. To begin with, I was overwhelmed because I didn’t know anything at all about business; girls of my generation, were not taught even the rudiments of commerce. And then I felt overwhelmed because I’m a tech guy or was. And suddenly I find myself managing people. And that’s, I didn’t know how to do that, either. And later, still, when I became competent, I was never an inspired manager. I think I’m more of a leader. I know where it is that we’re trying to get. But then when I was competent as a manager, then having to stand back and let professional managers take over for me and slaughter a whole lot of sacred cows, because they saw the company’s future quite differently to how I did.

Flexible Work, for Women.

Mark Littlewood
Thank you. So the point when you started to set your own business up, you’re thinking about it, you’ve been through a process and some of it was on the video, you’d started out in the post office and you got fed up one too many times. You spent some time in Vienna to kind of clear your head I guess at the end of 1959. 1962 was the moment, what was going on in those those couple of years? And how did you come to decide you had to do this, and in such a different way?

Dame Steve
I was so enjoying my business life, I worked in the public sector, then I worked for a very small, young computer company called Computer Developments Limited that was responsible for the development of the ICT and 1301, which had unbuffered peripherals for those who are interested in things like that. But the change that really drove my decision to go into business was because I hit the glass ceiling, nothing that came out in the film, it happens once, it happens twice, you learn to cope in a different way. I had a sexist bully of a boss at one time. And eventually I just got fed up with it.

Dame Steve
And so I wanted to create the sort of company that I wanted to work for where people work collegiately, where I could help you in the morning, I could ask for your help in the afternoon, where it was very much a team spirit. And therefore, a lot of other women of my generation were interested in joining me. So it started very much as a crusade for women, a crusade for a new form of working. What do women want from work even today? The two things that come up over and over again: work life balance? Well, thankfully, I’ve never got that. But that’s what people want. And I provided flexibility to the extreme. So we had part time, full time, min-max contracts, zero contracts, consultancy, annual contracts, homeworking – a lot of home working. And eventually somebody came forward and said: Well, we could employ a husband and wife team. And we said: Well, why not? So we then started job shares. So flexibility to the extreme, even to the extent of remunerating people from a cafeteria benefits. So they would say at the end of each six months, they would sort of say they wanted their remuneration, so much in direct pay salary, and so much in indirect pay; better company car, more holidays, this sort of thing. So it became a very different sort of company. And I look back now with pride at our commercial success, which took a long, long time. But I also look back with pride because I think we were the forerunner of the gig economy. We had people flexing around the whole time. And that is how the world is going now. “Didn’t she have a lot of vision?” Well, I didn’t at all, it was just a way of working.

Mark Littlewood
Well, it’s a way of working that people hadn’t really been thinking about up to that time. And I think there’s even people in the audience here today, we’re talking about the age of remote work. And the tools that enable that to happen.

Dame Steve
I’m talking about 1962, 50 years ago, and I am so disappointed that some things haven’t moved as fast as I would’ve dreamt.

Team Communication.

Mark Littlewood
So the plan was you had a team of people who were programming, you were in an office. We were talking earlier on and one of the things that people were saying, as you’re finding this business, five years, seven years before email was invented. How was communication happening.

Dame Steve
Our team worked worked with a simple telephone. We even used to ask applicants because we were all working from home. Do you have access to a telephone? Do you have a telephone? Or do you have access to a telephone? So I think the point that I want to make is not really the technology, it’s much more the management style that allows you to work in some of these new ways. And it worked with fairly conventional structures, but rather unconventional communications, if you’re working remotely. And the same applies if you’re working internationally, you really have to make sure that what you’re saying is clearly understood at the other end. And we finished up with half our staff in India and very different cultures, and how do you make that work? And it is by getting to know each other. And by making sure that each time you communicate from A to B, the receiver has really understood what it is that you’re saying and that you’re listening as well.

Early Tech Projects.

Mark Littlewood
And can you give them a little context about the type of projects that you were working on?

Dame Steve
One of the first projects we had was not what I was expecting. But it was management control protocols for an international consultancy OIC developed. And we used those standards ourselves to control software. So we began to get a reputation for being in command of software, we were one of the first to offer software on a fixed price basis. Another early one was the black box flight recorder for Supersonic Concorde. And that was taking a lot of technical analog readings from dozens and dozens of instruments, measuring acceleration and height, and God knows what, and putting them all into a best protected black box. Those boxes not actually black there, the only one I’ve ever seen was bright yellow, because it’s there for emergency. But nevertheless, you get the concept, the vast team of 30 people actually delivering this while the Concorde was still on the drawing board.

Mark Littlewood
We’ll get back to that later on in the conversation, I think because there’s all sorts of things with aircraft control system software, in the news at the moment. But as you grew the business, you were taking a pretty enlightened view on your employees and you were paying your employees and you got to a point where you were not being paid for the work you were doing and sat down with Grindley to talk about what would happen. Can you talk a little bit about how that changed the business and change the way you thought about it.

Dame Steve
I think like many startups, we got to the stage where each project ran profitably, there was more money coming in than we were spending. Nevertheless, we were getting more and more overdrawn. And we were getting to a stage of profitless prosperity, because we had lots of business. And basically, we’d underpriced and I didn’t understand basic things like cash flow. So we asked for consultants, and actually paid for half a day’s consultancy, from the very consultants that I’d helped with their programming. And they came up with the idea of actually gearing the payments to the staff, to the payments from the client. And that got rid of 90% of the cash flow problem straight away. It meant that the relationship with our – we call them our panel rather, because they were not all employees. But the relationship with that staff became even more intimate, because they were actually helping to drive the organization by their skill and by being patient for that payment. And if the client didn’t pay for three months, we paid anyway.

Dame Steve
So I mean, it was carefully structured. But that led very much to my desire to actually share the profits with the team as well. And it seemed only right, that they should be benefit from when we had successes, which we did eventually get the way in which success exhibits itself is very different. I think it’s possibly a feminine thing. I am so proud of having got a quarter of the company into the hands of the workforce, at no cost to anyone but me. And that CO ownership really made so much difference when I wanted to employ somebody that I couldn’t afford to employ. I offered them shares my first chairman, I paid in shares my first company secretary, I paid in shares, these were top class people who helped me at a strategic level all paid in shares. So I think shares is something that is not just something you do later on, but something that can be right at the start.

IPO.

Mark Littlewood
So talk us through the, not necessarily the end game for the business, but the end game before we move on to a different phase of your your life. Can you just talk us through I suppose the highlights of IPO if there were any highlights of IPO and then beyond.

Dame Steve
We’d gone through a series of acquisitions, I had left the company on retirement at the time the company actually floated on the main stock exchange, we did something slightly unusual in that we turned ourselves into a PLC without being quoted. And that got us into the corporate behavior of a PLC, so that when we actually floated on the stock exchange, it was a more natural thing. The bigger it got, frankly, the less I enjoyed it. The bigger it got, the less I had to contribute. At the same time, I felt it was my company and the professionals were coming in without valuing what I had done. That the years and years of struggling to get the company going, because I didn’t get any capital out of women in those days, there was no point in trying to raise capital for a woman in business. So it was a painful time after the float.

Dame Steve
As the professionals really changed the culture of the company very slowly, I’m keeping some of the best bits, the flexibility, and the trust between the relationship between the staff, because we went code ship in 2007. It was acquired by what is now part of Asteria Software, a French group. And a bit of me is disappointed, I would have liked to have seen the company last 45 years. It made me very, very wealthy. And that was not really part of my aim. So what do I do with that wealth? Well, first year, I bought my husband, some gold cufflinks. Second year, a gold watch the third year, a gold watch strap that went with it.

Entering Philanthropy.

Dame Steve
We had this handicapped child that was mentioned in the film. And that meant that really, some of the things that wealthy people do with their wealth was it was just not particularly open to us if we wanted to have a family life at all. And so the giving of a quarter of the company to the staff, had given me this idea that there was a lot of pleasure in giving, that there was a lot of return, when you actually give strategically. And so gradually, I turned into a philanthropist, nothing to do with collecting stamps. But I have now tried to use my wealth in a positive way. I’ve learned to be a philanthropist who can leverage other funds, can focus on the things that I know and care about. And there are only two really: and that is information technology, and autism, which was my son’s disorder. And on the IT side, I funded the IT Livery Company in the City of London, number 100 – sounds like binary – in the city’s pecking order. And rather more interestingly to you, I guess, co founded the Oxford Internet Institute. That was in the year 2001. So well retired by then, that concentrates not on the technology. I’m not a techy person, but not on the technology, but the social, economic, legal and ethical issues of this network of networks. And that has been very satisfying from the IT point of view, the majority, three quarters of my giving is a sort of social investment. But three quarters of that investment has been for the condition of autism. And I think I’ve made some difference to that young growth sector of health.

Work with Autism.

Mark Littlewood
Well, I know a number of people who have autism in the family who would agree and I’d love to spend a little bit of time talking about some of the things that you did, because they were very different. I’ll set them up. You knock them out of the park.

Dame Steve
Fairly traditionally, the first charity that I set up, my son was the first resident in the first home of that first charity which pioneers services for autism. And today that charity employs about 300 people and supports 150 people of extreme vulnerability like my son 24/7 and supports another 100 People who want a one day a week basis. And that setting that up was very like setting up a company, it’s exactly the same process of getting some sort of strategic board, getting a chief executive, getting some sort of management structure, getting some metrics in. And the main, perhaps only, difference is that your measurements are not financial, they are in terms of the quality of life of a vulnerable sector of the community. So that was the first one and it took me 17 years to get that one financially sustainable, financially and managerially independent of me. That’s a long time, I wasn’t being full time, but that’s a long time.

Dame Steve
And the second charity only took me five years. And that was a school for pupils with autism, that now has about nearly 100, pupils, 600 staff because these are very vulnerable children. And it has not just the normal school range of five to 19. But it also has a young adult center 19 to 25. So I’m really trying to impact the lives of those people. And a lot of people come to see what we’re doing.

Dame Steve
And the third charity is a research charity, Autistica, which funds research into autism, and it fundraises and then goes on to fund and lobbies. One of the first projects was very much pure research, setting up an autism brain bank, which researchers need and worldwide apply to. Nowadays, they’re doing more applied research, equally valuable, solving issues such as: why do autistic women die younger than autistic men? So why is it we have no idea what’s going on there? And those three charities together, employ 1000 people. So again, I find myself in a business environment, doing something that is part technical, because I’m using robots as teaching robots. I’m using virtual reality. But I’m a now an early, early user of technology.

Mark Littlewood
Fantastic. When we were talking few weeks ago, you spoke about the conference that you organized, which sounded pretty spectacular.

Dame Steve
This was very early on, it was back in ’99, I think. I set up a virtual conference on autism, internationally. It had 65,000 people attended internationally from I think 83 different countries and some so small, I had to get the Atlas out to find out where enough this person was. But I thought that was a first. In fact, it was the third such conference. I do like to be first, I think first mover advantages are grossly exaggerated. But I like to be first because I have that low boredom threshold.

Women’s Position.

Mark Littlewood
Fantastic. Now, I have to say, a lot of the contribution for some of the questions that are coming up, are not from me, and in some ways, I don’t have the right to ask them, but from my daughter here, who is an avid reader and has been thumbing your book and has come up with some fantastic questions. But these are women in technology. And that side of things, and I know that’s something that you believe strongly about, but don’t necessarily want to spend a huge amount of time on so I guess a couple of questions here. Has increased representation of powerful independent young women in the media and society meant that women who choose or have to bring up children ended up trivializing the second group? As more fantastic role models for entrepreneurs and business people who are successful women, and that’s the way of framing women in society. Is that actually doing down people who aren’t in that position? And is that a problem?

Dame Steve
Well, the fact remains that most of us are average and that’s all women want really, to be accepted for what they are. And whether you’re high performing or low performing. That’s the person that you are and you want to be accepted in society. It is a fallacy that women are, we’re not in the industry earlier on, programming actually started from coding and coding at Bletchley Park, that sort of coding, which was entirely women, 1000s of women involved at that stage. And it was programming that was considered coming out of the clerical industry. So it was predominantly women at some time. Then as it got more interesting, then men came in. They took some of those jobs. And now, women are opting out of some of those high career paths we can discuss if you like, why that should be. But on the technology side, they’re opting out very early. Children at seven and eight, the girls are really keen on the technology, and the same girls at 15-16 find it boring, they view technology as nerdy, they don’t enjoy it, and they have backed away. And they are really lost to the industry, which is desperately short of staff.

Young Women in Tech.

Mark Littlewood
Now Violet here’s a question for you: how many young women are there in the computer science class at your school.

Violet Littlewood
Two.

Dame Steve
And once you’ve got that imbalance, this discourages other women to come in, you know, you look at that class, you don’t think you want to go there. So the imbalance perpetuates itself in the same way as bias in artificial intelligence, which I gather you’ve been talking about repeats itself, and is leveraged by an AI system.

Mark Littlewood
So, question for me, and for a lot of the people in the room, how can men be better allies?

Dame Steve
Well you’re very kind. I think the thing that’s really changed today is that women have always advocated for each other, I’ve always advocated for women, and we looked after each other, it’s very much team working. But now we’re saying, and it’s not just after the Me Too movement, that really, the men have to advocate with us, and they are starting to do it. And that’s what makes a difference. So thank you for your understanding. Thank you for your understanding that you’re going to give in the future.

Mark Littlewood
Are there things that we should be doing and talking about as men or, you know, other women in established groups and technology? Are there things that you wish men had been thinking about when you were starting out in your career? That it’s worth pointing out?

Dame Steve
I don’t look back 50 years ago and say it should have been that switch and been that, but the fact is that the gender issue, and if you’re a woman in tech, you’re always asked to comment on women in tech, which is a bit unfair, because I have other things to do. But the gender issue is the big one that makes an economic difference to the country. But there are other issues of disparity. And I work a lot with autism, as I’ve said, and getting people with autism into employment, much of which can be in the computer industry, because many of them have stereotypically just the sort of focused sharp minds that really will thrive in the computer industry, and the computer industry will thrive from their involvement. The difference in age, I started working at ATA, and as you’ve heard, I’m 85. Now, I think you can still have people working at all ages together, different sexual orientation, that middle class people, people who’ve never been to university. There are lots of us about and we have much to contribute.

The Future of Tech.

Mark Littlewood
Yeah, no, here here. Gonna touch on the future of tech and then if it’s okay, taking a few questions from the crowd. I know it’s hard work being up here. So one of the things that we noticed in the book. You were using knitting needles and note cards for your for records. One of the questions Violet was saying is that was working for you. And in the 60s, we’ve now got AI enabled machine learning robotic on the blockchain. Blardy blar? Yeah. Is it any better?

Dame Steve
Oh, of course. I think the world today is really very exciting. It’s still changing at an enormous rate. Never be a slower change in the future either. Just going. You have the opportunity of contributing to your profession, your company, your country. And that, I think, is a wonderful thing that is permeating society now. I mean, you must feel that too.

Mark Littlewood
Yes, sometimes not in a good way. I think some of the things we’ve talked about today are really interesting and reframe some of the ways people think about technology and how it can be of benefit to humanity. And I encourage that sort of thinking, obviously.

Dame Steve
But do you think other people encourage that sort of thinking?

Mark Littlewood
No. So I have this theory that we’ve got about 20 generations left, most of our human brains are about half a million years behind in their evolution. And now we’ve worked out how to kind of prod the right things at the front of your brain. We’re doing it to make money sometimes without thinking about whether that’s for good.

Dame Steve
I’m amazed how young people multitask. And that is certainly a generational issue. And that ability, what are they doing, they should concentrate, they should focus and so on. The children are able to do it as their own enormously well informed and innovative. And, you know, nowadays, it’s not just a question of making things faster, cheaper, better, but actually innovating, making new things, making new concepts. And the kids are good at that too. Yeah.

Becoming a Companion of Honour.

Mark Littlewood
We’re gonna round the conversation up, but we’d love to do a few questions if that’s okay. Ladies and gents. Oh, no, I’m going to ask a couple of questions here. Caused a bit of bother, quite frankly, Dame Stephanie ‘Steve’ Shirley CH. Because your name doesn’t fit on our website. Tell me about CH, because that’s something that’s really quite special.

Dame Steve
I’m very proud. In 2007, to have been appointed a companion of honour to the Queen, there are only 65 of us in the world. So mine was for contribution at a national level to technology and philanthropy. But what does the Webby Award actually mean? I’ve got a great big Gong that I had. It was presented to me at Buckingham Palace, which is great. And that is it. It is purely a honorific title that most people would get with that title.

Upcoming Film.

Mark Littlewood
So the other thing that I love asking people’s is in the film of your life, who would who would be likely to play but actually, there is a film they made about your life? You know, there is and who do you think will be playing?

Dame Steve
Yeah, well, I have the right to veto as to the the names that are being floated at the moment are Kate Winslet and what is the other one, that Emily Blanche? That’s right. So these are good names. We have directors who have directed the lady in the van and the Iron Lady, so I shall be in good company. Wow.

Mark Littlewood
So do you associate yourself with the lady in the van or…? Ladies and gentlemen, Dame Stephanie ‘Steve’ Shirley, thank you so much. So we have quickfire questions? Yes. We’re going to start here.

Question from Audience
Hello, this is Sharon.

Mark Littlewood
Sharon is over here. Oh, thank you.

Question from Audience
So last night, I started to read your book. And I cried the whole night. So it’s very much related to my early childhood and my early years. I’m in this country. And I think everything boils down to the end is about people. And the people like you and Poppy that actually have passion, and have the ability to make things happen. So I love that you said, Actually, you didn’t have a vision. And Poppy didn’t foresee there’s 1.6 billion pounds ahead of her, actually, business ideas can evolve and business model can change. In the end, it’s the people that can make it happen. And when Derek asked after, well, everybody’s gone. Whether you still have your business, I mean, again, is not the bee’s knees. And the idea is that people, I believe, if nobody goes to Mark’s conference, you will still find something that you love, and you’re passionate about, and to do. And I just wanted to thank you, for your love for life. And your love for other people really inspired us. I think this foundation of having a successful life or business. Yeah, everything. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

Mark Littlewood
I will say normally, when people make a statement rather than a question, the microphone explodes. But I’ll let that one pass because that was very good.

Age Discrimination.

Question from Audience
You touched on something just very briefly, and that was that people can do great things. And of course, we’ve talked about women in the workforce and in technology, but you mentioned older people. And that is something that we’re seeing now in the technology industry is a pretty big discrimination against anyone who is maybe over the age of 40. A lot of startups are just getting younger people. They do it under the guise of they’re smarter. But really what I think it is, is they’re cheaper, what can we do to help the age discrimination that we’re seeing in the tech industry right now?

Dame Steve
Well, I would have thought the opportunity to get older, wiser people into an organization at a managerial or strategic level, it just can’t, can’t be missed. Because when you know, we have this technology, which is so fascinating. But we forget the people issue, we forget some of the politics, we forget what’s happening in the rest of the world. And your older contributors can really help you in that way. So I think the only way in which you’re going to get old people in is to realize that we actually have some skills, and try a few see what happens. Some of them are very tired.

Mark Littlewood
Okay, I gotta tell you that massive hint that we’re going to squeeze two quick questions.

The Future of Schooling and Parenting.

Question from Audience
Thank you, Dame Shirley for spending the time with us, really appreciate that. And I’ve a question which I think you might be in a unique position to answer which is how do you think schooling and parenting needs to adapt for the future that we’re all creating?

Dame Steve
That’s a big question, isn’t it? I think we’re using technology in teaching a lot more. As I say I’m using a robot with special ed education. I think that will apply very much more. I think we’re using virtual reality in the schools for teaching, for experience, for developing people as children as whole people. I think some of the schools can work with the parents. And the parental influence is of course, enormous. We haven’t really discussed where innovation comes from but in a family where the parents are innovative, the children will get the habit of oh, we could do a so-and-so. Oh, what about so-and-so? Supposing you turn it upside down? Will it be the same? We’ve just got a black hole photograph for the first time, do we talk about this with our children and the significance of astrophysics? So I think a lot comes from the parents and I don’t have any wonderful things except in individual families. Make sure that you really respect your children and listen to them, because they have much to say.

Dame Steve’s Advice.

Mark Littlewood
Thank you. Final question is what words of advice would you give a young woman starting out on a career in tech or thinking about it?

Dame Steve
It’s pretty enthusiastic because I’m a glass half full sort of person. But basically, I think for a woman starting off you, you have to start off by not under estimating your own capability. The whole of the world sort of tends to think you know, but you don’t underestimate yourself and choose something that you really enjoy. Perhaps something that’s a little fizzle of fear attached, get trained in it, and then just start and go for it and see how you get on.

Dame Stephanie ‘Steve’ Shirley CH

In 1939 Dame Stephanie Shirley came to England aged 6 as an unaccompanied child refugee on the Kindertransport.

In 1962, she started Freelance Programmers, pioneering new work practices, especially in hi-tech. Her company was one of the first organisations to fall foul of the Sex Discrimination Act in 1975 – up until that point, she had only employed women. She worked on software projects including Concorde’s black box flight recorder and built the company into a global business which she took into co- ownership at no cost to anyone but her. After her company was acquired, it was valued at some $3bn, 70 of her staff became millionaires.

Dame Stephanie has served on the boards of Tandem Computers, the Atomic Energy Authority and was the first ever NED of the John Lewis Partnership. An ardent philanthropist, she was appointed a Companion of Honour in 2017 – for “nationally important service as entrepreneur and philanthropist”.

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